Jen Carroll

Episode Transcript

Jen: Welcome to another episode of Meaningful Measurable Marketing with the Data Dames. I’m Jen Carroll…

Annalisa: …and I’m Annalisa Hilliard.

Jen: If you like what you hear today, you can connect with us online. Our website: And you can find me on Twitter at @jencwriter.

Annalisa: And sometimes I’m on Twitter. When I am, it’s at @ahilliardm.

Jen: And you can find us both on LinkedIn, as well as our company page.

So, today we are doing episode two of our series on Yes Buts in Digital Marketing. Just to refresh people’s memories, if you didn’t catch our last episode, which was actually our first one on Yes Buts, why we’re even using this slightly offensive,

Annalisa: But not really.

Jen: Yes. Slightly humorous…

Annalisa: Humorous.

Jen: Okay. But not really. No. Yes Buts in digital marketing, what does that mean? Most of the time, these foundational digital marketing tactics are a yes for clients or for businesses. But, but there are always considerations. And maybe after you’ve looked at all the buts, you might decide, this might not be quite right for my company right now.

Last episode, we talked about search engine marketing, and we started with that because we do have a lot of clients who ask us about search engine marketing. Many of them are doing it right now, and they’re not getting any results or they want to know if they should start campaigns. It’s also another area where we, we often see businesses taken advantage of.

So we started with, you know, with paid ads and social ads last time. And we called it, very appropriately, the short game. Because

Annalisa: return on your, if it’s done well.

Jen: Right. But the moment there’s the, but right, the moment there, those ads…

Annalisa: Stop. You stop the campaign. You put, you know, you decrease the budget and you see fewer leads.

Jen: Right. So, it’s a very much of a, a short term, short-game strategy. And that’s why our next Yes But is search engine optimization. I feel like there should be some applause from our…

Annalisa: yeah!

Jen: Here we go. [Applause]

Annalisa: Thank you, thank you. No really. [duck sound]

Jen: Search engine optimization happens to be near and dear to you, Annalisa. You want to explain why?

Annalisa: Yeah. I feel like it’s family. I’ve been doing SEO almost years.

Jen: Coming up on…

Annalisa: Decade. Holy crap.

Jen: Yeah. I know how fast time goes.

Annalisa: Yeah.

Jen: One of the things we’ll be hitting on in today’s episode is how SEO has changed

Annalisa: In the past decade, obviously a lot has changed with search engines and search engine algorithms. And so when that happens, SEO changes as well.

Jen: So, just a quick overview, we’re going to be covering three main points and those are:

Annalisa: Rankings, focus, and outcome.

Jen: Hmm. Okay.

So our small business shoutout…

Annalisa: Don’t be too excited, but be excited.

Jen: Okay. What’s the…

Annalisa: Just be the right amount of excited. Do you know how to be the right amount of excited?

Jen: No. Yeah, I’m usually like really excited or just not excited at all.

Annalisa: Yeah. You know, I’ve noticed that in spending a lot of time around you.

Jen: So what’s something that I should get excited about? SEO?

Annalisa: You should get excited about SEO.

Jen: But I’m a content person. Are we gonna have to talk about what those two have to do with each other?

Annalisa: Oh, you bet.

Jen: Okay. Alright, sorry.

Annalisa: Maybe we need transport to a better place in the podcast.

Jen: Oh!

Annalisa: Today’s beer: Platform Brewing Company, brought to you by Cleveland, Ohio!

Jen: And their beer is very good. What are you drinking?

Annalisa: Hey, something has to be good in Cleveland.

Jen: Oh!

Annalisa: I was, I was watching the Browns / Ravens game prior to this, but, when the score went like what? I think it was 24 to six, Ravens. I was like, wow, let’s go record the podcast. Right?

Jen: When this game is over.

Annalisa: I was really, I was really rooting for the Browns today because,

Jen: you’re actually an obnoxious Steelers fan.

Annalisa: I’m a Steelers fan. There are no such thing as obnoxious Steelers.

Jen: Yes, there are.

Annalisa: But anyway, yeah, you know, the Ravens are really the tougher team for the Steelers. So, it would be great if the Brownies could beat them today. I think that’s going to take like a little miracle.

Jen: So that’s the beauty of podcasting is you couldn’t see my eye roll on that.

Annalisa: That is the beauty. No one wants to know about that.

Jen: So back to the beer. So Platform Brewing Company in Cleveland.

Annalisa: One thing Cleveland got right.

Jen: If you’ve never tried their beers, I have yet to have a bad one. They are excellent.

Annalisa: I am currently drinking Paranormal Mosaic.

Jen: Now there’s a name.

Annalisa: IPA.

Jen: Yeah, there’s a name.

Annalisa: That’s a great name.

Jen: It is a great name.

Annalisa: They have another one called Haze Jude. That’s for all you Beatles fans out there, but I also have a nephew named Jude, so it’s also, you know, among one of my favorites.

Jen: Mm, that one is really good. I was not drinking platform today.

Annalisa: That’s too bad.

Jen: I know. I was actually drinking Southern Tier, which has a tasting room in Cleveland. I am a huge… [applause] I am actually a huge fan of their Pumking. And I, and I had some on draft the other day.

Annalisa: I would say you’re not the only one.

Jen: I know it is really good. Now there all the pumpkin beers are out, of the ones that I’ve tried Southern Tier is definitely the king, the Pumking. They are the ones.

Annalisa: Good joke.

Jen: It wasn’t, it, it was an attempt. It was an attempt. I actually today was not drinking Southern Tier Pumking. I was drinking Southern Tier’s Autumn IPA. And it was really good. So, I highly recommend Southern Tier’s Autumn IPA.

Annalisa: Well, there you go.

Jen: Yeah. So we were doing our, we were doing, what are you drinking in previous podcast episodes, and somehow we kind of were forgetting that one.

Annalisa: Well, that’s the problem when you record a podcast at different times of the day, right? You’re recording in the morning and we’re giving you beers. Yeah.

Jen: You should be suspicious.

Annalisa: You should be worried about us.

Jen: Yeah, you should be. So we will move on to our next segment, which is our small business shoutout.

Annalisa: Yeah, small business shout out!

Jen: And today we want to highlight our friend Celia King, who is Arrants McSwain, by the way that she has a great story as to why her company is called…

Annalisa: Or is it Arrants McSwain who is Celia King?

Jen: You could go either way with that.

Annalisa: I think it’s, it’s really something we’ll have to ask her what she prefers.

Jen: So in case you’d like to know what Celia King does…

Annalisa: Because you do. You wanna know.

Jen: You absolutely do. She specializes in leadership training and development and team building.

Annalisa: Actually she did some work with Jen and I together as Data Dames.

Jen: Yeah. And she’s been,

Annalisa: And we’re, you know…

Jen: Better because of it. Yeah Right, right. She’s…

Annalisa: No we have no quirks whatsoever.

Jen: Oh, that is so wrong.

Annalisa: Well, I mean, you are an INFJ, so…

Jen: And you’re an INTJ, and we both geek out for…

Annalisa: That’s probably for like a whole other podcast.

Jen: We, we better not go down that path.

Annalisa: But Celia helped us do our inventory.

Jen: She did. And also, figure out what our challenges and our strengths are.

Annalisa: In working together.

Jen: Maybe opportunities is better.

Annalisa: Yeah. That’s the corporate way of saying challenges.

Jen: Weaknesses. Yeah. Cause we don’t have any weaknesses, but anyway. Check out Celia at She is a very dynamic and, she’s just, yeah, she’s, she’s a dynamic consultant and trainer and, Oh, she works with horses, too, by the way, that’s, that’s a highlight.

Annalisa: That’s a really funny way to like transition. It was like, she’s a dynamic leader and she works with horses.

Jen: Well, that’s because she uses horses in leadership training, and that’s pretty unique. And so you should definitely check out Celia.

Annalisa: Do it. You’ll be a better leader. Better person in general. Yeah.

Jen: Agreed. All right. So.

Annalisa: On to SEO Yes Buts.

Jen: So again, we talked about three key things that you should consider.

Annalisa: Okay. So the first one is ranking and what I mean by rankings. Okay. So everyone says, Oh yeah, I want to get my, you know, I want to get my website or I want to get my webpages in Google search coming up number one.

Jen: Do people still say that?

Annalisa: Oh my gosh. Yes. People still say that and it drives me insane. So with clients, we try to put proper expectations around rankings because rankings are important, but they’re not everything. And what I mean by that is… Okay, so we were talking how SEO has evolved over the last years that it’s been kind of in existence.

And, initially, in very early days of SEO, tou would have you do a search in Google and you would get like results, and it would just be links down the page. results. And so, you know, that’s kind of where the whole like, Oh, I want to be number one. I want to be number one at that top, the top of the, the link list.

And as they’ve evolved and they’ve, you know, they’ve brought on, advertising, so you have, you know, paid search in search rankings with and next to organic rankings. And so SEO again, SEO is organic rankings, and so Google has put ads above organic rankings. And so organic rankings have been pushed down the page.

And you, like, if you’re talking purely like number one, top of the page, like that’s not even possible anymore. because the first thing that you see in a search result is, is always an ad.

Jen: Those search engine marketing ads that we talked about last time.

Annalisa: Right. And obviously that has evolved, as well. You used to be able to tell more easily, just by, just by looking like the ads used to have like a yellow background to them. And now they’ve changed it where I think it just says like ad beside it. Real small.

Jen: So it’s even more subtle.

Annalisa: It’s definitely more subtle.

Jen: Than it used to be.

Annalisa: And then you’ve, you have like a local rankings and so, what is called local packs. And when you’re doing a search that brings up local businesses, services, products, you’ll see a local pack come up. And so that’s another thing that pushes organic rankings down. You’ll have ads and then you have local PAC and then you’ll have organic rankings. And again, dependent, I think there’s like five, usually three or five local listings. Then you can like see more, but like they usually show like three to five. It used to be originally, it was like seven. So the organic rankings like really got pushed down the page, but…

Jen: What’s that local pack? Is there any magic to getting your… Well, there’s never any magic. It’s a complex algorithm, but can you even figure out what should be in the…

Annalisa: They use that a lot. I mean, similar to organic rankings, but I guess what I’m trying to say, I could do a search…hmmm. .let’s say for ice cream, and Jen, you could do a search for ice cream.

Jen: I would definitely search for ice cream.

Annalisa: Who wouldn’t?

Jen: Right?

Annalisa: Right. And we could get two different results. Like our results pages could look very different. And there’s different reasons for that. One is that if we are signed into our Google accounts, which we both have Gmail

Jen: And a lot of people do

Annalisa: and we are using Google search for when we’re on the web, which again, most people are, Google learns kind of your preferences and tries to predict what results you’ll prefer, and so…

Jen: Google’s trying to get into my head.

Annalisa: Of course. Yeah But yeah, so Google, they will, they’ll show different results based on the searcher and their personalization. And then another thing is that if you are doing a local search, if it does bring back local search results, one thing that is a big factor is proximity. And so if you’re searching for…

Jen: Ice cream

Annalisa: …ice cream, it will automatically bring up local ice cream shops. And if I do…

Jen: My favorite is Handels or Taggarts. Oh yum.

Annalisa: Right. And Taggart’s would probably come up if you were searching from the office. Taggarts would probably come up before Handels because Taggerts is closer in proximity to where you’re searching from. So, you know, that’s, that’s kind of the whole thing behind it not being universal. And there’s other things as well.

Jen: Of course.

Annalisa: Of course. There’s like over ranking factors.

Jen: Okay. That’s that’s a lot.

Annalisa: Anyway, so that’s one of the things. And then the other thing to, to think about is that if you do want to be number one, which again, that’s not actually a thing. You’re going to put a lot of time and effort, depending on the competition of, you know, what your business, services, products are. So, like ice cream in Canton, Ohio, would be pretty competitive. Like lawn care would be pretty competitive. And so the more competitive, the more time it takes to perform well in local search.

And some of that has to do with just the length of time that you’ve had a presence on the web. That kind of signals to Google authority. Like if you’ve been on the web for years versus someone who just, you know, put up a website yesterday.

Jen: Just started making ice cream yesterday.

Annalisa: Just started a business yesterday. You know, it’s going to take time for that business to build an online presence in a way that Google thinks is authoritative from a search engine perspective. They want to, they want to kind of get a history of how people use your site, you know, and, and kind of get a, judgment of quality. And that’s, that’s like a whole rabbit trail of, of things that we can touch on in the future.

Jen: Well, some businesses obviously care about local and others are competing more on a national level. Can you, I mean, what’s…

Annalisa: Yeah, so if you’re not, you know, if it’s not a local thing, say you do an eCommerce site or whatever, and you’re competing nationally. But you’re still gonna have your big competitors that have been around for a long time and have, you know, a huge share of the market. And, you know, one of the things that Google has in their algorithm is kind of a popularity. So, pretty much anytime you do an eCommerce search, I would say one of the first five organic results is going to be Amazon, right? So, you have that competition, as well.

And none of this is to say that you can’t make any headway or that you can’t compete, it just takes time. So that’s where the long game comes in. It takes time, it takes good strategy. It takes, you know, effort in creating good content. It takes effort in building a website that people engage with. And it takes, just yeah, time and effort.

Jen: And that’s actually a perfect segue to our second point, which is the need to focus your SEO efforts.

Annalisa: Actually, I want to say one more thing about the ranking.

Jen: Sure.

Annalisa: So a lot of times, again, I still hear this like, Oh, I want to rank number one or whatever. And, in the same way that I hear it, small business owners often hear it. So, my dad has a car dealership in Pennsylvania and he gets digital marketers calling him all the time and saying, Hey, I can get you, you know, I can get you number one in Google if you give me, you know, bucks a month, or usually it’s like bucks a month or whatever. And if you ever get a pitch like that, you can pretty much just hang up the phone because there are no promises and there is no guarantee in digital marketing. And I think they just hope that like, Oh, the business owner won’t like really check on it or, you know, personalized search, we’ll put them number one for their own business. Things like that. So, yeah, that’s definitely something to, to, to listen for when you’re talking to, someone who might be pitching you digital marketing and SEO specifically.

Yeah. So the next point is focus, and we kind of had this in the first one SEM with goals. And basically, I can’t stress enough that it is important to have…

Jen: An overall marketing strategy that aligns with your business objectives and goals.

Annalisa: Correct. Yeah. So if you don’t have that, you know, again, it’s, it’s a lot of money that you’re putting into something and time and it’s going to be hard to measure the results and even know what to measure. Unless you have, you know, a solid plan or you have quantitative goals and good reporting to know what you’re, what you’re hitting on and what, and what you’re missing and what you need to improve on.

Jen: Then this might be, I mean, just a good point to make here is that’s one of the reasons we’ve, you know, Annalisa and I have stopped offering a standalone SEO and content marketing services because we have found over and over again, that SEO and content marketing are not successful unless they are tied to marketing strategy that, you know, points back to business objectives and goals. They just don’t, they, they never meet expectations.

Annalisa: So that’s a perfect transition then into our final point in talking about outcomes. Obviously, you know, you do want to know whether you’re making headway or you’re improving or you’re moving in the right direction. But a lot of times, you know, just because of human nature, we are like, Oh, if we don’t see results, like immediately, we like…

Jen: Pivot? Oh no.

Annalisa: Yeah. The buzzword of the year.

Jen: 2020. Pivot.

Annalisa: Thanks, COVID. Oh no.

Jen: No thanks, COVID.

Annalisa: It’s not just COVID, but yeah, that’s a buzz word. But anyway, you have to give it at least six to months to start seeing results for organic, so SEO, effort. And a lot of times that you’re like, Oh six to 12 months, you know, that’s a half year difference. You know, that’s crazy. And a lot of that has to do with competition. So, obviously, the more competitive of area that you’re in, the businesses that you’re going up against, the market competition, obviously the longer it takes to see results. And during that time, obviously you have to continue to be building that SEO, building the optimization of your website. Building content that will support your optimization.

Jen: And that, and supporting your optimization could actually include, for example, search engine marketing, which the short game can do a lot of fill in while you’re waiting for organic results to increase. Again, yeah, building out content, oftentimes one page about a particular, within a particular subject area, is not enough.

Annalisa: Yeah. Especially if it’s competitive.

Jen: Yeah. Links. I don’t know if you want to mention something here about links.

Annalisa: Yeah. So, you know, having a good link structure, obviously internally on your website, so that people can get to the pages that are most important, obviously interlinking between pages that are relevant to one another. So, you know, a category page will link to a product page.

Jen: What about backlinks?

Annalisa: Okay. And so that’s like a whole other, that’s a whole other thing is getting links from other sites. Again is kind of an authority thing. If other people are linking to your, to your website, to your content, to your products, that’s kind of a signal. If they are relevant sites and the sites that also have authority with Google, them linking to your site shares kind of value in Google’s eyes, kind of gives your site more value, and helps you with quote unquote rankings.

Jen: And that’s why, you know, media interviews and other things like that like maybe

Annalisa: Longer form content

Jen: That you would think of as like maybe some traditional, old-school PR or things like that. That’s why those efforts done well and in a targeted manner are still valuable. So, not only they build your brand, they also help build your, your authority.

Annalisa: Right. So, you know, supporting efforts can be any, any of those other areas of digital marketing and really just having a holistic approach to digital marketing, not putting all your eggs in one basket.

Jen: So speaking of outcomes, maybe we should talk a little bit about the kinds of outcomes that are meaningful, especially since, you know, this is the Meaningful, Measurable Marketing Podcast, what kind of outcomes are meaningful? And that depends I’m sure. Right?

Annalisa: Sure. Absolutely. But you know, for, for marketing and SEO, you know, some of the things that you will see commonly are assisted conversions or micro conversions where you’re seeing, you know, increased time on page from when you optimized the page. The optimized page is more engaging. It’s keeping people’s attention longer. It’s informing them better than what was there before. And some other assisted conversions can be number of entrances. That can be a really good metric to look at to determine how well your pages, quote unquote, ranking. The further down the page you get, obviously, you know, the less likely you are to get that traffic from the search.

So entrances can show, Hey, I’ve improved the number of people coming to the site into the, like coming to the site through this page, can, can show you like, Oh, you know, you know, I must be improving my position in search results. So, that’s one thing. And then bounce rate is another metric that you’ll often come across. That has to do with once traffic comes to your page, if they don’t engage with the page at all and they bounce back to search, it’s, it’s counted towards your bounce rate. And there are a handful of other assisted conversions that you’ll, that you’ll come across, fairly often in, in SEO.

Jen: And some of them are going to depend on, again, what your goals are.

Annalisa: Absolutely. Yeah. And then the big one obviously is leads.

Jen: For lead gen sites.

Annalisa: Lead gen sites. And it could be a call, you know, a phone call, or filled out a form. Those are usually like the two more common ways that leads are counted. And yeah, so, you know, organic can help with that.

Jen: And I guess messaging, obviously, on the, on the page is critical.

Annalisa: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, messaging is always important. Always going to be important.

Jen: So, since this is the Yes Buts, a big Yes But in digital marketing, I think it’s important to explore briefly, at least, is SEO for everybody? Is SEO for every company?

Annalisa: I would say that the basics of SEO — SEO — is absolutely helpful for all websites

Jen: So, example being like writing your metatags, writing your title tags and meta descriptions.

Annalisa: Right. Yep. And you know, doing keyword research like that is helpful for all sites. And, obviously, there’s going to be, you know, a spectrum. So if you only do metatags and keywords, hopefully you will see some improvements. But the, you know, the full effect that you can get from doing more in-depth, you know, SEO — pulling it into user experience, looking at more technical SEO things like crawlability of your site and indexability, structure of your site, etc., like really digging into kind of the guts of your website. You know, that would, along with metatags and content messaging and everything else — the more you, the more things you do, obviously you’re hopefully building on that gain. So yes, it will help you to do, you know, some of the basics, but your expectations should be kind of in line with the other things you’re doing in, in addition.
So again, are you, are you doing content messaging? Are you, you know, how does your strategy go?

Jen: Yeah, and speaking of content messaging, another perfect segue. Our next Yes But, we’ll probably…

Annalisa: You get to talk.

Jen: I was gonna say, ah, I’m going to be doing more talking. We’ll be talking about content and why it’s almost always a big yes, but there are some buts to consider.

Annalisa: There’s always buts.

Jen: There are always buts, I know.

Annalisa: A lot of butts.

Jen: Everybody has a butt? Okay. Here we go.

Annalisa: Everybody poops?

Jen: Oh no. That’s a kids’ book. Okay.

Annalisa: Sorry. Just had reminded me of that.

Jen: So, our final segment that we have added recently is, what are we learning? And that’s because learning is

Annalisa: Awesome!

Jen: Yes, and a core value for us at Data Dames. We always want to be learning.

Annalisa: Absolutely.

Jen: So, Annalisa, what are you learning about?

Annalisa: So I was supposed to have something personal.

Jen: You don’t have to.

Annalisa: But instead of learning, I think some, I think we can like split up this segment a little bit and say, you know, what are we excited about? What are we learning?

Jen: What are we excited about.

Annalisa: So what I’m excited about, and I mentioned it a little bit earlier, is football is back. And although this is , and nothing’s the same, and there’s like, you know, hardly any of the teams are allowing fans to come to the games. So personally I’m excited about the NFL return. And yes, I know there’s a lot of controversy with the NFL and, and that’s legitimate and it has given me pause and, and I have thought about, you know, where I stand and what I want to support with the NFL. But, you know, part of it for me is that I grew up watching football, watching the Pittsburgh Steelers with my family, and my brother and I to this day get together and watch the games together. So, that’s, that’s really, what it’s about for me in addition to I’m just watching good athletes, great athletes, perform.

So. What I am learning work-wise: I am reading a book called Algorithms of Oppression by Sophia Noble. And it is a book that highlights the inequalities even that we have in search. And yeah, obviously, it’s important to what we do at Data Dames, but it’s something that, you know, I care about personally. And, you know, I want to be, educated about and to, you know, listen to the conversation and to figure out how I can be part of kind of changing that in some way. I’m sure it will be a small way, but, yeah, just want to be aware and, and be an advocate. So, yeah. Yeah.

How about you, Jen?

Jen: I’m not particularly excited about football this year.

Annalisa: Nope. There it is.

Jen: Sorry. I have been a Browns fan and I’m not not a Browns fan. See, I grew up watching football with my dad. So, lots of great memories about that, but,

Annalisa: Were the Browns good back then? That was before my time, so.

Jen: Yes, the Browns were good back then, but anyway, it’s, they’ve been, it’s been such, it’s been so hard to watch them for so many years that like, yeah, I can’t say that I’m, I’m super excited about football season.

Annalisa: You could always come to the dark side.

Jen: My dad would be so disappointed in me.

Annalisa: He would roll over in his grave.

Jen: Yes he would.

Annalisa: So what are you excited about?

Jen: Well, I am excited about Samin Nosrat’s book, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat.

Annalisa: Ah, Samin. Yes!

Jen: Did I get that right? Is it salt, fat, acid, heat? Yeah. I may be getting those mixed up.

Anyway, if you haven’t seen the Netflix documentary that she did, it’s excellent. And she, before that documentary was a thing, she wrote a book.

I have been cooking for plus years. And I will just say that this book is completely elevating my game. In addition to just feeling more confident with, when you have various ingredients, like swapping them out or, or…

Annalisa: Tell us something about salt and meat.

Jen: That you need to plan ahead with your salting, that the meat…

Annalisa: The brining.

Jen: Well, not just brining, but even just like coating with the appropriate amount of salt a day before you want to cook the meat and wrapping it up because meat should be salted essentially from the inside out. Samin talks about that. That as the salt does it’s — I want — it’s scientific. She actually…for those of you who are science geeks, for those of you who love to hear the science behind cooking, she, she really delves into that and talks about how salt works. But just to be brief, the concept of salting from the inside out, you have to plan in advance to let that salt do its work like overnight. It doesn’t take much time. It just takes a little bit of planning ahead.

Annalisa: I’m going to try that on my next steak.

Jen: It makes such, it makes such a difference in the cooking, so I’m kind of excited about Samin.

What am I learning about on the job? I mean, just a quick side note, if you hadn’t already heard, QR codes are making a big comeback, thanks to COVID. A lot of, you know, touchless communication. QR code technology has advanced quite a bit from back in when everybody thought QR codes were going to be the next big thing.

Annalisa: Do you need a special app?

Jen: No, that’s, so that’s the beauty of it. Now your phone camera will work with QR codes. All you have to do… and again, this might be, people may already who are listening maybe, Oh yea, I already know this. But for maybe those of you that don’t, you know, all you have to do now is get out your camera, take a picture, and the website link automatically pops up.

Annalisa: Wow, that’s pretty fancy.

Jen: So QR codes, if you’re not,

Annalisa: So, I guess phones have advanced, too.

Jen: Right, right. Yeah. So yeah. So the technology around QR codes and making them user-friendly and seamless has come a long way and just in time for the need for touchless.

Annalisa: And how does that apply to digital marketing?

Jen: Well, anytime you want to bring a real life experience that someone might be having to the, the digital world, it’s, it’s ideal. So, I mean, obviously the, the place that I first started seeing them quite a bit was restaurants with the menus. So you didn’t have to get a paper menu menu that you touched, you, you, they would just to give you a QR code and the menu would pop right up.

So, you know, again, you know, anytime you, if you want to make, I mean, if there’s some instructions like, you know, if you’re in a public place. That could be a hospital lobby or something else. And, you know, you want to communicate with patients and their families, for example, of, you know, information they need to know when they enter, you know, that’s a great way to do it –a quick QR code for them to get the information online.

Annalisa: Awesome.

Jen: And for me going forward, one of the things that I’m going to be doing a deep dive into… You know, strategic thinking is one of the things that’s super important to us here at Data Dames because without it, most of the things that we do don’t get implemented well and don’t end up getting results. So, strategic thinking is a very important, but I’m also doing a deep dive into some design thinking, which is more about creating things for the end user. And it’s not just in digital marketing. It’s not just, I mean, it’s, it’s a whole way of thinking — from architecture to Apple, iPods and iPhones and everything, design thinking has often been behind some of those revolutionary ideas.

And even beyond design thinking, I’m very interested in learning more about where, design thinking and strategic come together. And that is, you know, either design, design strategy. Or, you know, strategic design. Well, you know, tomato, tomato, whichever way you want to say that. So, that’s something I am, I’m just getting started with.

Annalisa: Awesome. So look out. The Data Dames may design the next Tesla.

Jen: Okay. Highly unlikely, but we want to be better marketers. So, next time we’ll be talking about content and I will be doing even more talking than I usually do. So that’ll be next time.

Annalisa: Alright! Make sure you guys show up for that!

Jen: So, we hope that you’ve enjoyed this episode. We would love to connect with you. Again, datadamesmarketing com. You can connect with me on Twitter. I’m there fairly often at @jencwriter.

Annalisa: And I’m at @ahilliardm. Catch you on the flip!

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