Jen Carroll

Episode Transcript

Show Notes for Pros & Cons of Website Builders & Page Builders with Holly Pryce

If you’re thinking of redeveloping your website or building a new one from scratch, this episode of Meaningful, Measurable Marketing is for you. Jen and Annalisa interview Holly Pryce, a WordPress developer from the UK, about the pros and cons of popular WordPress page builders and website builders like Wix, Shopify, SquareSpace, and others.

We talk about benefits of page builders, like low-code / no-code websites, drag-and-drop functionality, and speed to launch. We also talk about the disadvantages, such as inadvertent content loss, lack of usability, how easy they can be to “break,” inability to customize, poor SEO, and the sheer amount of code. We hope this episode gives anyone considering a page builder or website builder lots to think about.

This episode was inspired in part by a great blog post Holly wrote last year, Should You Use a Page Builder on Your WordPress Website?

Small Business Shoutout

Independent Girls Collective. Since we recorded this podcast in December 2020, this organization has closed. You can now find Holly’s friend Julia at

What Are We Learning?

Holly: React.js

Jen: advanced features of Google My Business

Annalisa: how to blend data sources in Google Data Studio

Please don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast and give us a review.

Note: This content was created, and is best consumed, as audio, an intimate communication experience. Transcripts fail to capture tone, voice inflection, emphasis, and the other characteristics of audio that make it so personal. So, we hope you’ll listen.

If you do choose to read, please be aware this transcript was created using artificial intelligence, machine learning, and a little bit of human editing; it may contain mistakes and typos.

[Meaningful, Measurable Marketing Podcast Intro]

Jen Carroll 0:53
In this episode, recorded in December 2020, Annalisa and I were excited to interview Holly Price, a web developer and WordPress enthusiast from Liverpool in the UK. Holly first caught our attention in a moment of frustration in mid 2020. Actually, we found ourselves dealing yet again with a page builder in WordPress that wasn’t functioning well on a client’s website. And we were trying to wrap our heads around why there’s been a meteoric rise in the popularity of page builders. While I was googling various queries, one of Holly’s blog posts, “Should you use a page builder on your WordPress website?, popped up. She’d written that post in May 2020 and, from a developer’s viewpoint, listed out many of the frustrations we Data Dames were encountering. She felt like a kindred spirit from all the way across the pond. After some messaging back and forth on LinkedIn, we were delighted when Holly said she would let us interview her about page builders–and more broadly, website builders like Shopify, Squarespace, and Wix–and discuss their pros and cons. We hope the knowledge she shares will be helpful for any small business marketer who’s considering website redevelopment. Here we are with Holly…

Jen Carroll
In today’s edition of Meaningful, Measurable Marketing, we are going to be talking about page builders and website builders. The reason why is obviously they’ve become very, very popular over the last decade or so. But they also present some problems for all parties involved developers, businesses, SEOs, marketers, all of that. So today, our guest is coming to us from very far away

Annalisa Hilliard 5:42
across the pond

Jen Carroll 5:43
across the pond. That’s a terrible accent. Okay. I’d like to introduce Holly Price. She is a website developer in the UK. And Holly, tell us about yourself.

Holly Pryce 5:55
Hello, yes, my name is Holly. I’m a web developer and I specialize in web development, WordPress websites. And basically my main job is to turn sites into fully functioning WordPress websites. And I also provide WordPress support to WordPress website owners.

Annalisa Hilliard 6:12
And what part of the UK are you from?

Holly Pryce 6:15
So I’m originally from the county of Shropshire, which you probably have never heard of before.

Jen Carroll 6:21
That’s okay. Most people haven’t heard of Canton, Ohio.

Holly Pryce 6:24
It’s like a very rural part of the UK. Lots of farms and hills, but I currently live just outside of Liverpool.

Annalisa Hilliard 6:32
A good soccer team I hear .

Holly Pryce 6:34
Well, there’s two football teams in Liverpool. There’s Liverpool and Everson and I’m an Everton supporter, so. Okay. All right.

Jen Carroll 6:41
So is one of those good or not?

Holly Pryce 6:43
So both in like the top Football League here in the UK, but Liverpool did win the league last year, which costs a lot of books that

Jen Carroll 6:52
Oh, dear, nice. Yeah, I keep forgetting Of course. It’s football. Yeah. And we say soccer. So

Annalisa Hilliard 6:59
We actually had a conversation before we started recording. It was like, we’re talking in Fahrenheit.

Jen Carroll 7:04
Right? The confusion? Why I think I don’t know is maybe the US the only country that uses Fahrenheit? I don’t know. I probably. So one of the things that we like to do every podcast is we love to give small businesses a shout out, obviously 2020. It’s always hard to be a small business owner, but 2020 has definitely made it even harder. So we’d love to hear Holly if there’s a small business near you, that you’d like to tell folks about?

Holly Pryce 7:32
Yeah, sure. So I’m going to give a shout out to my friend Julia, who runs a business called the Independent Girls Collective. She’s based in Liverpool. Basically, it is an online membership for female business owners and ed courses to help business owners with all areas of their business and things like branding. She used to be an accountant. So she’s got some great courses on like tax, which is a bit more UK based. But there’s all sorts of courses on everything you need to know about running a business. And she also has a really supportive Facebook group, which is just full of business owners, you can go and ask any questions. So that’s my small business shout out.

Jen Carroll 8:11
That is awesome. What’s the website?

Holly Pryce 8:14
It’s called independent girls collective. I think it’s dot calm. If you type in in front of girls collective in Google, it’ll come up.

Jen Carroll 8:22
That sounds like that’s great. Thank you. Yeah, that could be a value for folks here.

Annalisa Hilliard 8:26
And you’re an independent business owner. Is that correct? Yes. So

Jen Carroll 8:30
my business is just called And I mostly run it on my own. My boyfriend, like to strops come and work with me, as of some of this year, he’s also a web developer. So that’s, that’s really fun.

Wow, that’s perfect.

Annalisa Hilliard 8:46
But still consider a small business?

Jen Carroll 8:48
Yes, definitely. Well, there’s a difference in the definition between small business here and where you are, how do you guys define small business in the UK?

So a small business in the UK would probably be maybe, like less than 10 employees? Probably. Okay.

All right. Yeah, here in the US, it it. We only have like, essentially two official definitions. And I think I don’t remember what goes up to I think it’s like over 1000 anything under 1000 might be a small business. I

Annalisa Hilliard 9:15
probably don’t want enterprise.

Jen Carroll 9:18
I don’t, Yeah, large business and small business. Do you think we would have more definitions, but I don’t think that we do. So. Anyway, we’ve come to our favorite part of the podcast, which is always What are you drinking? Now? Here it is 9am in Ohio,

Annalisa Hilliard 9:35
we have some good high quality h2o. Right? And the reference to Waterboy. Adam Sandler. Yeah.

Jen Carroll 9:44
And we also have some good quality coffee. Now. I suspect that Holly might be drinking something different at this point in the day, but we just love to hear in general what you are drinking or what do you like?

Annalisa Hilliard 9:55

Holly Pryce 9:55
Well, I’m just being boring and drinking water. Once once I’ve done recording this podcast, I’ll probably open a bottle of wine because it’s a Friday night.

Annalisa Hilliard 10:06
Absolutely. white or red?

Holly Pryce 10:09
I drink rose wine.

Jen Carroll 10:10
Well, they’re right in the middle. Very nice. Are you quarantining in any way right now? So you know,

Holly Pryce 10:18
yeah, so in the UK, we’ve just come out of Wales, in England, in England, Scotland, Wales, it’s all different. It’s very confusing. But in England, we’ve just come out of our second lockdown. And now we’re in like a tier system. So different areas of the country are in different tiers, depending on the infection rates. So there’s three different tiers, threes, the worst ones the best, and we where I live, we’re in tier two, which means we can’t go out to restaurants, but we can’t meet with other people. So rubbish.

Jen Carroll 10:48
We’ve got a lot of confusing things here as well. But I was just thinking on a normal like, if this if COVID didn’t exist, would you were there some great local places you’d like to go out to? On a Friday?

Oh, I would love to go to the pub, I really miss going to the pub, just like there’s a small one not far from where we live. It’s like really cozy, really traditional English pub with, especially this time of the year, it’ll have the roaring fire, and I missed so much.

Oh, my gosh, all right. If we ever get to

Annalisa Hilliard 11:16
the UK,

Jen Carroll 11:18
I’m going to that pub.

Annalisa Hilliard 11:19
We will look you up. Yes. Tell us where

Jen Carroll 11:22
that pub is amazing. Well, as I mentioned at the beginning, we’re going to be talking about page builders, and a little bit also about website builders. And the reason we invited Holly to join us today is this was several months ago, and it was just Annalisa and I had encountered just another instance of a problem with the page builder. And I remember I was just so frustrated with with it. And I just started googling why on earth do people keep using page builders, and Holly had written an excellent blog post, and I’m like, I gotta reach out to this to this person and say, like this, really this this blog post, it was exactly what some of the reasons I was looking for.

And so let’s start by defining, realizing that maybe not everybody who will be listening to this will know exactly what we’re talking about. They could be internal marketing, people who aren’t website developers, and therefore may not know the difference between regular WordPress site and a paid one that’s built in a page builder or even from a website builder. So Holly, do you want to tell us how you define page builders?

Holly Pryce
So a page builder is functionality that allows you to build websites and web pages without needing to know how to code. And so they usually utilize drag and drop functionality. And they are usually built with modules. So for example, modules or blocks. So, you would have like a textbox to add text in or an image block to add images in. There are specific page builder websites that you might be familiar with, like Wix and Squarespace, but you can also get page builder themes and plugins for WordPress websites.

Jen Carroll
And I know that’s because WordPress probably has felt the need to be more competitive.

Holly Pryce
Yeah, definitely. I think people see WordPress as being very technical. And that’s why people’s kind of come in to make life a lot easier.

Annalisa Hilliard 13:10
Is it that they created their own page builder, Gutenberg, is that right?

Jen Carroll 13:15
Yeah. So in 2019, WordPress, pulls out their block editor, which is also known as Gutenberg. And it’s because like you’re saying, I think they realize that they need to compete with places like Squarespace and Wix and have more of a user friendly interface. Yeah,

Annalisa Hilliard 13:31
It’s funny, because we were doing our website around 2018. We were like, oh, we’re we’re thinking that Gutenberg was going to be like the new WordPress, but we had it like, we had our WordPress, our developer install it initially. And then we’re like, we don’t want that anymore. Please take that off. Install, like, disable Gutenberg plugin. Right. It was the point of that he was in the development stage.

Jen Carroll 13:55
Yeah, it was very disappointing, to say the least. And we tried when, when we were trying to use it, so really take that off.

It was very buggy. When it first came out. There were a lot of problems. And yeah, even I installed like that, called the classic editor plugin. So I could go back to the normal. That’s because I didn’t like it.

Do you use Gutenberg now, or are you still going classic?

I yeah, I have made the switch now. But I do miss the old one. I think it’s because I used it for so many years.

So within page builders in WordPress, you talk about two different types. So if you wouldn’t mind defining themes versus plugins,

Holly Pryce 14:35
Yeah, so there are page builder themes, which is where the entire website becomes a page builder. So you can build absolutely everything. So the header, footer, as well as all the content on the page. And then there’s plugins which kind of work with existing WordPress themes, and they’re mainly used to control the content rather than things like the headers and footers.

Annalisa Hilliard 14:57
That’s a good definition and clarification for Because I know I’ve, you know, I’ve worked with, we’ve worked with several clients that over the years have had page builders. And can you tell like when you log into the back end of a WordPress site, whether it’s theme that blog, that’s a page builder or a plugin?

Jen Carroll 15:17
Yeah, so you can normally just go to the themes page when you log into the WordPress website and see which theme it’s using. So a common very popular theme, Page Builder is Divi. So running Divyy, then using that, and then like page builder plugins, you’ve got things like, Divvy does have a PayPal plugin if you don’t want the theme. But there’s also elemental visual composer and Beaver Builder are the most popular ones.

Annalisa Hilliard 15:45
How does that work with customization? Like if you’re going to build a website, a client comes to you and they want they want a custom website built? Do you always use like a partial page builder? Like if it’s like, I guess a partial to me would be a plugin.

Holly Pryce 15:59
Yeah. So it kind of depends on who the client is and what they want. Some clients want a lot of flexibility, they know that they’re going to want to build their own pages. And in that case, I would use a page builder plug in personally as a developer would never use a page builder theme, because I like to have full control over the theme. And I can code so it makes sense to make the actual theme itself from scratch. But some clients I don’t think are a good fit to have page builders. And in that case, I would build the website slightly differently. I’d utilize things like custom post types in WordPress and custom fields.

Jen Carroll
Obviously, because these page builders have grown in popularity, there are a lot of good things about them or pros to using them. So let’s talk a little bit about a few of those. We’ll start with you, Holly, what do you feel are the pros to page builders?

Holly Pryce 16:49
So I think the major pro of using page builders is that you don’t need to know how to code. And learning to code takes a long time and get an experience doing that. So being able to cut that out is a real benefit. And because you don’t need to know how to code, you don’t need to hire a web developer like means come and do it. And that means it can be a lot cheaper. And it’s also a lot faster. Because when I build websites, It normally takes three to four weeks just to do the first draft. And then there’s revisions and going live after that. But page builders can allow you to get a website up within a few days. That’s why a lot of designers offer like website in a day or website in a weekend project several wishes, page builders to do that, because it’s a lot faster.

Jen Carroll 17:35
And that’s actually speaks to a podcast that we did a while ago about the difference between developers, designers, and marketers. You know, that’s, that’s one thing here, at least in the US. And I don’t know if it’s the same in the UK, but people tend to interchangeably use the terms website developer and website designer, when most of the time website designers usually do not have any coding experience, you know, they’re like, they’re like the we kind of used Annalisa, you developed an analogy to you know, architect as the as the website market, or the you know, interior designer is like the website designer. And then the construction company is the website developer, the person who’s actually writing code, but here, a lot of times people will just hire, you know, a website designer, and you can be almost guaranteed that it will usually be in a in a page builder or website builder, is that kind of the same experience for you?

Holly Pryce 18:30
Yes, exactly the same, especially sort of in the online space when I worked in corporate, it was very normal to have separate web designers and separate developers, and we just focused on our own areas. But then, when I left my job and started with myself, it was quite shocked to find that there was a lot of web designers just doing web design, and they were building the websites as well.

Jen Carroll 18:53
Yeah, I guess that’s kind of one of the pros of having a page builder is a lot of times they they come in an aesthetic package. You know, they they look very nice. And so, you know, I think a lot of clients can get excited about a particular look that yeah, that they think is going to you know, work really well. That’s that can be something that’s seen as a pro, I think, to these to these, you know, themes and even the the templates that you can get in website builders.

Annalisa Hilliard 19:22
Yeah, and I would think I mean, obviously, know, you’re talking about a timeline, so it’s faster, but like, the faster setup usually would probably mean less expensive. I think it’s hard for us when we have clients looking at doing a website and someone sends them a proposal for basically a page builder website. And then they have like a real developer or a developer send them, you know, a proposal. And when they look at it side by side, you know, we have to convince the client or help them, you know, understand that, too. I mean, is that something that you run into a lot, obviously

Holly Pryce 19:59
Yeah. Definitely. A lot of the time people will come to me for a quote, and they’re also going to go to other people, it’s really hard to explain to people that you can’t really compare a website built with a page builder versus a website, built completely custom, just completely custom code. So it is, it is quite heartbreaking when people say no, because they’re gonna go with another developer, well, another designer who’s gonna build it with a page builder. But yeah, it is quite difficult. And sometimes I think maybe my life would be a lot easier if I just use page builders. But I know personally, that I, I can build a much better website, when I code it from scratch, it results in a better quality product product for the client as well.

Annalisa Hilliard 20:41
That’s probably a good transition in the talk about cons.

Jen Carroll 20:45
Yeah, so, Holly, why don’t you continue with your, you know, with kind of your line of thinking, you know, in terms of building a better website from scratch, what are some of the cons of page builders and website builders?

Holly Pryce 20:58
So one of the big cons I think of page builders is even though I said before, it can make it easier for people who don’t know how to code to build a website, that can also be really overwhelming for people to use. I’ve worked with clients before who have had their website built by someone else using the page builder. And they’re absolutely terrified of using it because they’ve had a bad experience. Maybe they’ve deleted something that they shouldn’t have. And then they end up just handing the whole website over to me. And it kind of defeats the point of having a page builder, it should make their life easy. And they end up having to close out. And I just feel like there is more to go wrong in that aspect.

Jen Carroll 21:40
Yeah, actually, I think that was a point we definitely wanted to hit on. And maybe you can talk a little bit from your perspective about more to go wrong. What do you what do you mean by that? We have some thoughts too, but…

Holly Pryce
So my guess is because a page builder basically allows a client to do anything, they will do anything, they can delete things, they can break the mess of the way it looks, you know, if you’re hiring a designer and the developer is because you want someone to make sure that your website is going to look nice and functioning well. But sometimes clients go in and they just cause absolute chaos, and mess. And insanely so we’ve you know, had issues with plugins and all kinds of things that you talk about things that go wrong.

Annalisa Hilliard 22:24
Yeah, I would say sometime. Well, I guess maybe the first thing I noticed, because, you know, when I first started looking at page builders and having clients that have them or or have used them, I was like, yeah, this is great. Like, is it? You know, I guess for me, and for Jen, we have a little bit more experience on websites than most clients, most of our clients, but we’re not developers. So we’re kind of in the middle, it’s potential that we could delete things. But I think we’ve probably I mean, I’m not saying it couldn’t happen. But we probably wouldn’t. But then like the things that we run into one of the things is a limited customization like, yes, there, you can move things around. And you can put things in different places. But like, at some point, you run into, oh, like I want to do this this way. And we can’t

Jen Carroll 23:11
you just you’re completely stymied at that point, right? You can’t do it because of the because of the builder.

Annalisa Hilliard 23:18
And then like, another thing is like usability for users to the website. So you talked about, you know, complications, and being overwhelmed on the back end of the website. But then I think on the front end, and again, with some of that, sometimes when you run into like a customization issue, it causes usability problems for the user. And so that I feel like is, is definitely one drawback of page builders and website builders.

Jen Carroll 23:45
One is marketers, you know, we’re we’re all about, you know, the user experience, we’re about conversion optimization and other things. And those page builders and website builders are not necessarily built with any of the marketing pieces in mind. And so when we want to change those things, and you run into a page builder, and you can’t it’s very frustrating, I think to Holly, you mentioned in your blog post originally about access code, and there was a lot about that. Can you talk a little bit about that’s kind of like a hidden thing. clients don’t really know or understand why that matters. But…

Holly Pryce 24:19
Yeah, sure. So with page builders, they contain a lot of code, because there’s so many options. So for every option, you see, there is a lot of code behind the scenes. More code means not only is there a chance of there being more problems and what you’re saying about installing plugins, sometimes you get plugin clashes, it can also slow down the website massively, which can have effects on the performance of your website speed has an impact on SEO. So there’s just so much extra code. And as a developer, you said about like, customizing with page builders, they’re so limited that you end up having to write more code to be able to do the things that you actually want to do and it just seemed It’s really ridiculous to add more code when it’s already really bulky.

Annalisa Hilliard 25:05
And that’s not like, oh, that you can just remove either like it has to remain there whether you use it or not, because it allows all the functionality, right of the page.

Holly Pryce 25:17
Exactly. Yeah. Whether you’re using it or not, it’s there.

Annalisa Hilliard 25:20
Yeah. And then one of the other things I know that we’ve run into, I know I was working on on site that was on Weebly. Like, it just seems like page builders and website builders specifically are behind a bit on SEO and obviously SEO evolving all the time. It’s hard for them. Everything update but like one of the things I remember having to do with the Weebly site is like I actually had to have like an app who use heading tags. Like, I like this capability not because I was used to using like, the WYSIWYG editor in WordPress, where you could use, you know, HTML code, basic HTML code or heading tags. And I wasn’t able to do that in Weebly. But I mean, now you can mean maybe, but it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s seems like there’s a play.

Holly Pryce 26:14
Definitely, I think that is another thing that’s wrong with page builders is that they aren’t great for SEO. And also, because the client can control everything they can also, it’s like, I know, I don’t think heading tags makes much of a difference in SEO anymore. I’m not but I’ve had clients, and they’ve just added like, 20, h1 heading tags to like one page, and you’re like this, this isn’t how you do it. Right?

Annalisa Hilliard 26:40
Yeah, I mean, I guess you’re right. It doesn’t. It’s not usually from a SEO standpoint anymore. But it’s still I feel like it visually helps break down parts of the page. When you use like headings. Structurally,

Jen Carroll 26:54
yeah, for the user, it’s a better experience on the on the page. Some of the other things, too, that we’ve we found is, for example, we had talked with an insurance company about a website, and they wanted to use a company that just built websites for insurance companies. And that’s that, you know, that was kind of all they did, and all the websites had some aside the same basic look. And so while it sounded like it was, you know, affordable, it was, it looked nice, it would be a very difficult thing, I think, to differentiate their brand, when your template looks like similar to all these other insurance companies. And so I’m not again, sure why a company that was forward thinking and wanted to have a website that was uniquely their own, why they would want to use, you know, a page builder or a website builder that a bunch of other people in their industry use. So that was one another thing that we that we noticed. Annalisa, you worked with someone that had a Shopify site, you know, and you talked a little bit about all the expenses that go on top of the basic.

Annalisa Hilliard 28:03
Right. And I guess there’s certain plugins, like I guess apps and plugins are kind of the same thing. Depending on what platform you’re talking about on WordPress plugins, on shop, buy, I think they call them app. And I know my friend has like an e commerce portion to her site. And so she uses Shopify for that. And I know there’s like additional apps, she has to pay for monthly, like I think there was one that like, helps her control her inventory, or have like a database for her inventory. And so there’s like added costs on top of what they quote you as, like, here’s your monthly cost, but it usually ends up being more than that for some of the advanced functions.

Jen Carroll 28:42
Right. And I mean, I know some plugins also cost money on WordPress, but But yeah, again, if you’re if you’re looking for this idea, this is going to be inexpensive and, and like this one basic cost. And suddenly, you’re adding more and more each time, you need to add functionality that that changes the price.

Annalisa Hilliard 29:01
Yeah, something to, I guess, keep in mind when you’re looking at the cost of a page builder.

Jen Carroll 29:07
So when people come to you, I guess, you know, kind of in conclusion, you know, these pros and cons. Holly, when people come to you, and they talk to you, I mean, I again, I don’t know how many clients actually are enough in the development world, obviously to understand page builder or no pillar page builder, like what I guess how do you counsel them?

Holly Pryce
So I’d say most of the time people come to me and they’re quite open to options. It’s quite rare that someone will come and say, Look, it has to be built with a page builder. I want this flexibility, right, the page builders give, but if they do come to me, and they talk about that I do explain that this is why I build websites the way I do without page builders and using basically the features that WordPress already has and they talk about the benefits. I usually talk about things like usability, SEO speed, and really trying to sell the benefits of that. Especially because they’re coming to me as a developer and they pay a developer prices, why would they want something that they can do themselves really.

Jen Carroll
And for us, when we when sometimes were brought in on projects that page builders already exist.

Annalisa Hilliard 30:17
I mean, I think it comes down to something similar to what Holly said, we always talk about functionality and speed and SEO and branding and like that can’t get with with a page builders as easily or

Jen Carroll 30:33
I think a lot of times, you know, when you talk about website builders, like your Shopify and so forth, most of the time, a larger business, you know, one, let’s say here, you know, 50 employees and up, they’re not going to be, hopefully, they’re not thinking about, you know, necessarily doing a, you know, a Weebly site or a Wix site. In most cases. However, marketing managers often don’t realize that a designer or a developer might actually be using a page builder on their sites or

Annalisa Hilliard 31:02
a builder plugin.

Jen Carroll 31:04
Right. So I think it’s just good. You know, hopefully, you know, we have some listeners today who this might be informative to them. So that if they’re going to be, you know, their marketing manager, and they’re going to be considering a redevelopment in 2021, or, you know, and again, with the increase of online use during, you know, during this coronavirus pandemic that, you know, I know a lot of companies are thinking about redeveloping or their sites, it’s important that they know about these page builders before they enter into contracts with you know, and again, even some agencies I know, well, we’ll use page builders. And

Annalisa Hilliard 31:41
yeah, that reminds me, I guess, and be a question for you, Holly with page builders, like if you commit to using a page builder, how easy is it to like, be like, Oh, this is not the experience I thought it was, but go back. Like, it’s not that easy, right?

Holly Pryce 31:58
No. So once you’ve installed a page builder, and you’ve started using it, all your pages will be created using that. And if you uninstall the page builder plugin or theme, you’re going to get left behind with shortcodes, which are like pieces of text that are in brackets, and the page will just be absolutely full of them, your content will be in between them. But you have to sit there and manually remove them. And I moved a website recently from a page builder to just using normal WordPress. And it took hours and hours just sitting there picking out the content and moving it over. It was just so tedious.

Annalisa Hilliard 32:37
So it’s almost like starting over.

Holly Pryce 32:40
Yeah, basically, it’s like starting from scratch again.

Jen Carroll
Yeah. So it’s good to, you know, again, really good to be aware of what you’re getting into before you before you do a page builder. Again, I just feel like many of our clients don’t even know how the back end of their site is being designed or developed. And it would be really advantageous for them to, to check into that before, like you said before they start on a new site or redevelopment really important.

Holly Pryce
Yeah. And I think a lot of designers and developers say, Oh, well, it doesn’t really matter what’s going on behind the scenes, as long as the website looks like the client wants it too. But I couldn’t disagree more I do the client should be aware of what the website is using because it could lead to problems later down the line. Yeah,

Jen Carroll
Great point. Well, that, thank you for that. That brings us to our last segment, which is always, what are what are we learning? Or what is giving us energy these days? And that’s especially important right now. Holly, what about you? What have you been learning about recently? Or what’s giving you, bringing new energy?

Holly Pryce 33:49
So, at the moment, I’m learning a new coding language because busy. So I’m learning React.js. React.js, which is a JavaScript code. And basically, it’s what’s the new block editor in WordPress is built on. So I thought it’s really important for me to learn. And yeah, I just like having a new challenge.

Annalisa Hilliard 34:12
So when you’re already a developer, does it help like make that process quicker? Or is it still kind of a long process to learn a new developer language?

Holly Pryce 34:24
Um, well, it’s…I realized it’s been a while since I’ve learned a new language from scratch. Because everything I’ve been using I’ve been using for years now. So it has been a real challenge for me to get back into the habit of learning, but I’m enjoying it.

Annalisa Hilliard 34:40
You use like a specific software or you use like old fashioned books?

Holly Pryce 34:49
Using the mixture. To be honest, I bought a course that teaches react but there’s also some really great tools online, like Code Academy, Scrimba, where you can actually like you’re given challenges to do and you learn about the code, and then you can practice it and get results back. So you know if you get it right or not.

Annalisa Hilliard 35:12
Alright, Jen,

Jen Carroll 35:14
I have been doing a lot of deep dives into more up to date features of Google My Business for clients, and just adding a, you know, a lot of customization to the, you know, Google My Business listings, because a lot of even though the features aren’t brand new, a lot of businesses still aren’t taking advantage of all of the above all of the features Google My Business offers, and we’re living in a world of zero click searches, which we are, you have to recognize that, you know, a lot of people may never click through to your website, and you need to, you know, also optimize your Google My Business. So I’ve been just kind of like, you know, working with clients, and also with our own and improving that. So that’s kind of been my recent thing.

Annalisa Hilliard 36:03
I have been working in Google Data Studio two, I’ve been using Google Data Studio for a long time, but just recently wanted to connect one of the tools I use on a regular basis called SEMRush. And the connector is not working the way that I had hoped. And I’ve spent a lot of time trying to troubleshoot it and get it to work but haven’t been successful. And I’ve been talking to them, and I’m not sure that it will be successful. But in the process, I’ve learned that you can blend data, data sources. So like, if you want to see information from like, two Google platforms like Google Analytics and Google Search Console in one place in one chart, you can do that now. I’m gonna have fun thinking about ways to put data together.

Jen Carroll 36:52
This is these are… Holly, you like to study programming languages. Annalisa loves to deep dive into data. I wish I had something quite as compelling today. Maybe next time. Well, Holly, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been wonderful. Tell folks again, where they can find you if they by chance. You know, hopefully folks in the UK might listen to this. But you know, you never know somebody in the US might reach out to where can they find you?

Holly Pryce 37:22
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. And you can find me at, which is my website. And Holly spelt with a Y and Pryce is spelled with a Y, as well. It’s a bit of a confusing name, domain name. And then I’m also on Instagram at @hollyprycedev, which is short for developer.

Jen Carroll 37:41
So thanks again, Holly, and will look forward to seeing you online. Cheers. And maybe someday I’d really like to come Yeah.

Annalisa Hilliard 37:51
All right. Thanks. Cheers. Thank you.

Jen Carroll 37:55
That wraps up another episode of meaningful measurable marketing, if you manage marketing, sales, customer service or operations for growing small business, we hope you found this podcast helpful. Any tool resource or article we referenced can be found in the show notes for this episode. And if you haven’t already, subscribe to our podcast or left us a review. We hope you’ll do both today. I’m Jen Carroll, my co host Annalisa Hilliard and I are marketing strategy consultants. And together we are the Data Dames of Data Dames Marketing. Learn more about us at