Jen Carroll
04/26/2021

Episode Transcript

Show Notes for the Market-able English Major with Abi Shoaff

This podcast features an interview the Data Dames’ first intern, Abi Shoaff, an English and creative writing major at Malone University, which is where we Data Dames received our bachelor’s degrees. Even though there are references to Christmas-time beverages, the heart of this episode is timeless: writing is a critical skill for most careers, including marketing. In fact, Abi recently wrote a blog post about that topic.

We especially love Abi’s way of looking at the intersection of design thinking, creative thinking, and strategic thinking. An added bonus in this episode for those who market to college-age students and young professionals: Abi talks about what themes and messages resonate with her right now.

Segments

What Are We Drinking?

From International Delight iced coffee to hot pepper corn whiskey mixed with ginger ale, we talk about some interesting drinks this episode!

Small Business Shoutout

Our small business shoutout this episode is an awesome coffee shop in Canton, Ohio, called Walkie Talkie Coffee. Serving coffee with heart. Building a walkable neighborhood coffeeshop in a repurposed service station.

What Are We Learning?

Abi: What am I going to take with me from this semester (fall 2020) and from this internship? “I’ve been looking into a lot of things that I didn’t realize would be interesting until now. So I’ve been researching, like artificial intelligence, and different different thinking processes and marketing strategies and things that I maybe would have thought were boring before I looked into them.”

Abi: reading Giovanni’s Room by James Baldwin

Annalisa: reading The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business by Charles Duhigg.

Jen: reading Half Broke Horses by Jeannette Walls.

Book titles are linked to bookshop.org, an online bookstore with a mission to financially support local, independent bookstores—a cause that’s important to Data Dames.

Please don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast and give us a review.


Episode Transcript

Note: This content was created, and is best consumed, as audio, an intimate communication experience. Transcripts fail to capture tone, voice inflection, emphasis, and the other characteristics of audio that make it so personal. So, we hope you’ll listen.

If you do choose to read, please be aware this transcript was created using artificial intelligence, machine learning, and a little bit of human editing; it may contain mistakes and typos.

Jen Carroll
Hey there, it’s time once again for the meaningful measurable marketing podcast. I’m Jen Carroll.

Annalisa Hilliard
And I’m Annalisa Hilliard,

Jen Carroll
and together we are the names of Data Dames Marketing.

Annalisa Hilliard
As the Data Dames, Jen and I are marketing strategy consultants who help our clients align marketing, business goals and measure results that matter.

Jen Carroll
As longtime friends we avidly consume and critique all kinds of drinks, spend as much time outdoors as possible, and are always learning.

Annalisa Hilliard
We also strive to stay on top of what’s happening in our industry.

Jen Carroll
Our goal with this podcast is to look at today’s biggest marketing trends, many requiring enterprise level teams and budgets to fully implement and try to apply them in ways that make sense for small to midsize businesses.

Annalisa Hilliard
We hope you’ll subscribe to our podcast and leave us a review. You can connect with Jen and me via our website, datadamesmarketing.com, or on LinkedIn where we do most of our social media networking.

Jen Carroll
This podcast features an interview Annalise and I recorded in November 2020 with our intern Abi Shoaff. Abi is an English and creative writing major at Malone University, which is where we Data Dames received our bachelor’s degrees. Even though there are references to Christmas time beverages the heart of this episode is timeless. Writing is a critical skill for most careers, including marketing. In fact, she recently wrote a blog post about that, and I’ll include a link to it in the show notes.

I love Abi’s way of looking at the intersection of design thinking, creative thinking and strategic thinking, which is something I’ve been pondering a lot lately myself. An added bonus in this episode for those who market to college age students and young professionals. Abi talks about what themes and messages resonate with her right now.

Without further ado, here’s our interview with Abi.

Jen Carroll
Welcome to the Morning Show with Jen and Annalisa, the Data Dames, and today we have a special guest, Abi Shoaff. Good morning, Abi.

Abi
Good morning.

Jen Carroll
Abi is a student at Malone University and a very special student to us because she is our intern. And so today we’re going to give her a chance to share her perspective. Well, hey, Abi, we’re gonna start with our favorite segment. Now. I guess it shouldn’t be our favorite segment, but it’s pretty awesome. It’s the “What are you drinking?” segment. So tell us what are you drinking today? or what have you been drinking in recent days? Now? You’re not 21 so.

Annalisa Hilliard
It won’t be too interesting.

Abi Shoaff
Yeah, I’ve just got my international delight iced coffee with me this morning.

Annalisa Hilliard
Ooooh

Abi Shoaff
That’s what it’s called.

Jen Carroll
Wow. Where do you get that at Malone?

Abi
I bought it from Walmart.

Annalisa
Like, is that like the creamer thing?

Abi
Yeah. It’s one of those like, big cartons of coffee that already has creamer in it.

Annalisa
It’s like Sugar Plum Fairy.

Abi
Yeah, kind of like that.

Annalisa
Gingerbread pumpkin spice latte.

Jen Carroll
You probably don’t even need to eat the rest of the day. That will just keep you going. Whoa. Well, let’s see. today. We are Annalisa and I are back drinking our usual our cherry blend. But what have we been drinking in recent days that we should have like

Annalisa
Ooh, las night we had a corn whiskey that was hot pepper corn whiskey, and I mixed it with ginger beer. Yeah,

Jen Carroll
it was it was actually really good. I was I was happy it was but I was hesitant. But

Annalisa
once I know what I should garnish that was like jalapeno or something

Jen Carroll
Uhm, extra hot? Okay.

Annalisa
It just highlights what’s in the drink. When you’re 21 Abi will make you one of those.

Jen Carroll
Yeah, you’ll have to come back. You’ll have to go back to Data Dames and, yeah we’re gonna Yeah, well, we’ll set you up.

Abi
I’ll be back next month. I’ll be 21 next month

Annalisa
Oh, really? Yeah, we’re so excited. Oh, well, I guess we’ll be coming back. Spring semester, right.

Jen Carroll
Like, adds a whole new dimension

Abi
Yeah, seal the deal of my next internship. Absolutely.

Annalisa
I think you picked the right internship.

Jen Carroll
So we didn’t really think this out very well. Who is our small business shout out today?

Annalisa
Abi, do you have a small business that you like to support?

Abi
Um, I know we’ve talked about Walkie Talkie in the past. I’m not sure if you guys have given them a shout out before

Jen Carroll
Yeah, I don’t think we have that’s an oversight. Yeah!

Abi
that’s what my favorite coffee shops in Canton and it’s really close to Malone. I can walk there and just a few minutes. Awesome. Yeah. Oh, yeah. My friends and I we love Walkie Talkie in Canton

Annalisa
but they don’t have the international coffee. creamer. They’re, they’re like the real deal.

Abi
They are the real deal there.

Annalisa
They they have their eggnog latte out now.

Abi
Oh, do they? Yeah.

Annalisa
Are you into that?

Abi
I’ll totally try it. Okay,

Jen Carroll
you want an even better the eggnog. They get it from Hartzler’s Dairy, which is nearby. And it’s amazing. I am not an eggnog fan at all, or at least I have not been in the past until I tried Hartzler’s. It’s just mind blowing. So it is worth worth worth a try. And I think that the owners are Malone grads. Yes? At least. No, I think so. Lindsay, I believe?

Annalisa
Oh, the owners. Yeah. Yeah. The owners of walkie talkie are absolutely. Yes.

Jen Carroll
So we have a little Malone thing going today. That’s pretty awesome. give a little shout out to our alma mater. There we go. So let’s dive in a little bit this morning with Abi. Are you ready?

Abi
I’m ready.

Annalisa
This is like a game show!

Jen Carroll
I know!

Annalisa
Let’s get ready to start Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? No lifelines though. No 50/50 All right.

Jen Carroll
Abi, tell us about your background and, and your major at Malone because it was a little unusual, I think for you to maybe reach out to Data Dames

Abi
Alright, well, I’m a junior right now at Malone University and I’m an English and Creative Writing double major. I never really had a certain particular plan of what I wanted to do with my major. I just knew that I loved literature and I’ve always loved writing various genres fiction, historical fiction, and nonfiction as well. Poetry–I just never knew really what I wanted to do with it. One of my professors, Steve Jensen, he had hooked me up with a list of ideas of different companies and organizations in Canton, of places to just look into on my own to do research on and just to kind of get a feel for what kinds of job opportunities there are for English majors. Because I think a lot of us, we kind of assume, if you’re studying English, you’re going to teach or you’re going to try to be an author. And I say “try to be” because, you know, we all have this dream of being a big writer, and very few of us really will be the next JK Rowling or what have you. So yeah, I had looked around at different companies just kind of getting a feel of what the workplace is like for people fresh out of college, and decided it was about time for an internship. I looked into a few places, and I heard about this place called Data Dames. And I was like, What is that? That’s very interesting.

Annalisa
Was it the name because of the name?

Abi
Yes, I actually, I was compelled. I was like, what’s, what is this all about? And I wasn’t really expecting to land an internship with you guys. I was thinking, you know, I don’t have a lot of experience at all in marketing, I hadn’t taken marketing courses. I’m not majoring in Business or Marketing. And so I wasn’t really sure how this would fit in to my major. But as I did more research, I came to find that a lot of people who study English do pursue careers in the business world, specifically in marketing with public relations and communications, it’s pretty–they coincide pretty well together. I do because if you are a good writer and a good reader, you have a lot of the critical thinking skills necessary to be able to have clear communication in the workplace. And that’s a skill that I think every business and every company needs more of. I think as an English major, really, I’m a lot more marketable than maybe I thought

Jen Carroll
I was gonna say that’s, you know, when we interviewed you, Abi, of course, that was, that was a key part to winning us over because when we–yeah, we weren’t looking for an intern, as you know, as you mentioned, and

Annalisa
that was the biggest challenge, right? convincing us, we would take an intern!

Jen Carroll
Obviously, I’ve been a writer for a long time. And I was an English major at Malone, also. And English and communications. And yeah, the the importance of writing good writing is so critical, in so many fields, but I definitely have made a lot of use of my writing skills in marketing. So yeah, she pretty much just like,

Annalisa
And she hasn’t started working on her book yet.

Jen Carroll
Now, get my book, but the one that I’m never gonna write anyway. But yeah, Abi’s messaging was on point to me. 100% she sold me. It was an excellent sale.

Abi
And I got to meet the dogs on day one.

Jen Carroll
That’s right. Oh, yeah. The Office dog. Have we talked a bunch about our dogs? I don’t want to like, I will

Annalisa
have to won’t go on,

Jen Carroll
we won’t go. We won’t. We won’t take a doggy trail. But we’ll have to, we’ll have to introduce our dogs on the podcast at some point. But you know, that’s actually a great point that you were making about creative and critical thinking and, and productivity, because that’s something that’s a perspective, I think that you bring that maybe somebody who is majoring specifically in marketing might not. So tell us a little bit about your creative thinking process?

Abi
Sure, sure. Well, I’ve done some research on different patterns of thought, such as design thinking, creative thinking, strategic thinking. And I think my creative thinking goes hand in hand with, with communication, because I think in creative thinking, it’s important to prioritize other people’s perspectives. It’s a way of looking at something in a new way, really in a new light. And so I think being a creative writing major, as well as an English major, helps me with creative thinking a lot because I am constantly trying to look at things in a new way to write about it or to understand someone else’s writing about those things. Even just reading literature for fun or for school, you’re constantly trying to adapt your perspective to the perspective of the characters or whatever is happening and in whatever you’re reading. I think creative thinking really is kind of central to a lot of jobs and we don’t even realize it.

Jen Carroll
Yeah, great point. What did you think? The marketing industry itself before you, you know, before you reached out to us and also Yeah, but yeah, you know, I think–

Annalisa
Yeah, talking about getting other people’s perspective.

Jen Carroll
Yeah, right. Right, right.

Abi
I think being someone who had so little experience or understanding of marketing, I kind of assumed and just summarized it in my mind has been kind of like the car salesman, you know, of, “oh, we’re here to sell a product. And we will do what we have to do to make you want what we have.” And you know, that’s just that’s what marketing is, you’re just selling things. And maybe there’s some deceit or trickery involved at times, and I didn’t ever really understand the difference between even marketing firms versus marketing consultants and marketing strategists. And that’s something that this internship has really opened my mind to, that, you know, marketing, it’s not all about just selling things, it’s, it’s about helping your clients with whatever their objective is, and helping them with even just longevity of looking down the road and seeing what can we do to further your success, and to help you grow your business and reach more people. I don’t think I ever thought of marketing as being something particularly helpful so much as something that people do for their own gain under the guise of helping others think I had a more negative view of marketing than I even realized until I started to learn what it really is about.

Jen Carroll
And, you know, honestly, I think the industry has done a lot to create that perception over the years. You know, like you said, trickery and deceit or, you know, just maybe not being, you know, completely honest, you know, about their products and services. But I feel like with the advent of maybe content marketing, in particular, which is, you know, has a lot of the writing and the creativity involved in it, it’s, it’s kind of morphed into trying to trying to educate, trying to share the information that people actually need to make decisions without the trickery involved. Not saying that there aren’t some companies that do that, of course, but I think that’s also part of, you know, working as a as a, you know, consultancy, that we are we, we are always looking for, you know, the kinds of clients that want to do the very best by by their customers as well. So that’s, you know, writing that’s super important to us. So, I guess this is a little bit of an opportunity, we don’t often get a chance to ask, you know, people of your age, Abi about, you know, what’s important to you. And, you know, and that’s kind of the research part about, you know, kind of getting into the heads of people that that we’re trying to reach. So I kind of saw this as a little opportunity to do some research. So tell us a little bit about, what about the mindset of you know, folks right now and in college, realizing, of course, you know, you’re not going to cover all the mindsets. People are people are different, of course, but it’s a little bit about like, what your What’s your biggest wants, needs, fears are right now is your, you know, at the point that you are at,

Abi
yeah, I can speak to that with my own perception and try to encapsulate more of a bigger mindset. But I would say right now, a lot of college students, at least, that I know, and for myself as well, we were really just wanting job stability. And it can be hard when you have a major that isn’t always seen as something super stable, trying to, you know, justify why you’re majoring in something that seems so useless, like creative writing, for example, trying to justify that to people. And so then I’m like, No, this is actually very important skill. And this is something I can take and go far with in my life. You know, that’s one of my early on fears that I struggled with. When I first came to college. And I was solely a creative writing major. I hadn’t added the English part at that point. And I think, as I’ve learned more and more, the more, the more confident I have become in my skills and also in my decision to major in what I am. And I think that’s just part of my personal process. But overall, I think in this time, it’s there’s a lot of uncertainty for not just the youth but for the general population with COVID especially and then different political affiliations and elections happening and there’s just a lot of unknown right now. And even to think about what I’ll be doing next semester, is more difficult than it would have been in the past for planning ahead, and things like that, because no one really knows what’s happening. And I think in a way, it’s, it’s interesting to be in college during the year 2020. And to see things feel like they’re really just falling apart everywhere, but then to look around and realize, you know, it’s this way for everyone, not just for me. So I think there are fears and there are also, there’s a resurgence there of knowing that everyone in college is going to have their doubts and worries, and then everyone in the world now has has their own additional fears and worries. And I think being in college right now, during this era, is really an interesting, interesting perspective on that to see how different students are handling it. And yeah, so I would say right now something a lot of people are craving in and out of college is just stability, and knowing like, what am I going to do. And so in a time where everyone is lacking stability, it can be difficult, and then it can also be reassuring to know that you’re not alone.

Jen Carroll
I guess when you think about the kinds of messages then that you might hear from marketers, about various, you know, various products. I mean, what kinds of messages are then really speaking to what you what you need the like, the stability? The the assurance that I guess it’s been a little bit overplayed, I think right now, but you know, we’re all in this together. You know? I mean, I’m kind [talking about] community. But yeah, I mean, on a deeper level, you know, I guess what kinds of, you know, example, I don’t know, if you have any examples of some, you know, some messages that have been, you know, particularly meaningful to you from brands, or, you know, organizations that you find compelling?

Annalisa
That’s a difficult question. Did you give her this question ahead of time?

Jen Carroll
I asked her about products and messages and spaces that are resonating right now. But it is a hard question. I mean, I was even trying to think about, you know, brands that I thought have done a really good job of not overplaying the “we’re in this together” thing. But

Annalisa
I think it’s hard because there’s so much noise. Yeah, everywhere. Everyone feels like I think when when, like, we started dealing with the pandemic back in, you know, March of this year, like, I think like brands were like rushing to get their message out of like, how they’re handling it. And I remember like, getting my, like, my email inbox was just like, flooded. And it was like, overdone. In like, a couple days, you were like over hearing from brands

Jen Carroll
Right. And also then to to layer on and not lightly Black Lives Matter, which was another layer of messaging that started to that, and the election. Right. Right. All these right, messaging on top of messaging, I think, you know, for the authenticity to shine through, I think has been, you know, it’s been a challenge. And I was, again, I’m still trying to still trying to think of a brand that I think it’s done really well.

Abi
I mean, all I’m thinking of right now is, as an example, are like restaurants and things, how they, every restaurant immediately had to tell everyone what they were doing to combat COVID because as soon as it, you know, broke out, everyone was like, “Well, what are restaurants doing?” You know, and things are closing down, in some places, and in other places, things are open. And it’s like every drive thru that you go to, you have to read their little signs about their precautions that they’re taking. And, you know, you’ll see, depending on where you are, people will have a mask on or they won’t, or they’ll be having you put your own debit card. And instead of handing it to them and then swiping for you. It’s just like, it’s nothing that’s a huge deal necessarily, or, like inconvenient, it’s just weird how everything has changed suddenly, and it’s like businesses weren’t prepared. And everyone’s just kind of looking at each other to see like, well, what are they doing? And how can I combat COVID in my business, and that’s something I noticed at least is just with restaurants especially, and then stores the procedures that they took with COVID with that idea of, oh, we’re all in this together, and kind of almost stealing from each other the ideas of what to do, and the situations of –

Annalisa
That brings up like an interesting thought, like, online versus offline, right. So offline, you had to like, do a bunch of procedural changes. That obviously like you said, like going to a restaurant or going to a store is like you have to know what the new procedure is. Whereas like, if it’s a brand that’s like, mostly online, like, what kind of changes, like maybe they’re gonna have like slower shipping or something, but like, there’s no contact anyway. So it’s interesting just to think about the differences there and how brands have to deal online versus offline.

Jen Carroll
And I think even Abi’s observation speaks to the very thing that she says she’s wanting most, which is stability, consistency. You know, and that’s obviously not something that we’ve, as a culture have been doing really well, for a number of reasons. But yeah, I think the more that brands can, you know, stress things that are, you know, consistent, stable and meaningful, I think, though, you know, are the ones that are, are succeeding better in their in their messaging right now. Because that’s definitely the kind of message people are craving. And they and rightfully so,

Annalisa
I think that that brings like, an opportunity to light for small businesses and local businesses. I know, it’s obviously probably super challenging for any business right now to to feel comfortable financially or stable. I think that now’s the time that they have even more a stronger appeal to that, like, community, you know, local. We’re, we’re pulling together to support each other by, you know, supporting local businesses, and putting that money back into the community.

Jen Carroll
Excellent point. Well, on a fun note, where are students or people with your mindset hanging out online these days, Abi? So Where? Where are the online spaces that are most important to you?

Annalisa
I there’s one thing I like about me, she’s not on social media.

Jen Carroll
Yeah, I think that she is, but we’re just not like seeing it.

Abi
I have social media. I don’t spend a lot of my time on it, though.

Annalisa
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think your’re atypical, maybe. But I like that.

Jen Carroll
I know, is that atypical? Or? I would assume, like everyone else, you might be getting some fatigue from, like Annalisa mentioned earlier: lots of noise. I mean, I have been very fatigued by it and have stepped away. How is that looking for you?

Abi
Yeah, that’s a good point. I think in general, I already didn’t have a super high consumption of social media compared to a lot of my peers, maybe. But even now in the state of just chaos, in some ways that actually has increased my social media use, because I want to know what’s happening, I want to be informed. And so if I see something, and I’m not really sure if that’s, if it’s true, if it’s believable, that causes me to look into it more. And then here I am researching something just because I saw a little thing about it on social media. And I think in a way it’s helpful. Social media is and this time and then and then on the adverse side, it’s, it can be damaging, it can be overwhelming. And then of course, the whole idea of all media has a bias from whatever side it’s coming from. It’s coming from a side. And so I think it’s also healthy sometimes to step back from social media and recognize like what a healthy amount of media consumption looks like, versus just letting it overrun your life. A lot of people my age, I think, are on Twitter these days, moreso than a lot of the other social media apps. Instagram has seen a bit of a decline. Facebook has been in decline for a while. But I also think the purpose of different apps are becoming more clearly different from each other. Which wasn’t something I had really noticed in the past. But I think depending on and what they want to get out of social media will depend on which app they use,

Annalisa
like, what about Tick Tock? I feel like if I was gonna have Yeah, I would I would be on Tick Tock.

Abi
Yeah, I watch Tick Tock with my friends. pretty often. Yeah, that one’s fun. And it’s like, it’s kind of like Vine, which passed away sadly. With with Tick Tock, it started out as almost like an escape, I think, for a lot of people to get away from what’s happening and to make little funny things or creative things. Just short videos of what they’re doing to share with each other. And I think it really exploded over quarantine, when people were just kind of stuck in their house and a lot of students, high school, middle school, college students, all of us at the same time. seemed to discover this app. And then it just kind of blew up almost overnight.

Annalisa
So now they have the audience, do you think like, the platform is changing? Like its purpose? A bit?

Abi
I think so, just like with any social media, what you see on it is catered to, like what you click on and things like that. Like, depending on–

Annalisa
advertising, right?

Abi
Yeah. Yeah, depending on what you watch, and what you like and interact with, that’s what will stay on your feed. And so I think if you’re looking for something other than funny videos, you’ll find it but even if you’re not, Tick Tock is evolving just like everything else. And has become a platform for some people to speak about topics that really are they are passionate about, such as Coronavirus, or Black Lives Matter or the election and other things we’ve talked about.

Jen Carroll
And I’ve seen it also enter quite heavily into Instagram. And so I’m you know, I’m seeing like a lot of Tick Tock, I’m seeing a lot of overlap now where people are interacting on different platforms trying to bring their content from one to the other to try and reach different audiences. So I’ve been seeing that kinda thing

Annalisa
that’s always what happens with those platforms. It’s like they get an audience and then all of you know, not all of a sudden, that’s, that’s probably their plan from the beginning is to get enough of an audience to make money for doing advertising. We just watched the Social Dilemma last weekend. And that one is on Netflix. I don’t know, have you watched Abi?

Abi
I’ve heard of it. Actually, it’s on my list. But I haven’t watched it.

Annalisa
It was good. I mean, for us, it wasn’t like, super shocking, because we’re kind of stuff in our industry. But yeah, there were some good things to take away from that and just be reminded of how social media actually works.

Jen Carroll
And I think too, being inside the industry, I mean, there’s, you know, there’s always value to being advocates, within an industry and I, I feel, you know, very compelled to, to be that kind of advocate for change in the business model that that we see. And and that was something that was highlighted very strongly in, in the social dilemma was the fact that the business model itself, the the commodity that essentially is being sold, which is people’s attention, you know, people themselves [are] the product, and the business model needs to change. So, I think that’s definitely something that’s, you know, key and actually, we usually finish up each podcast talking a little bit about what are you learning and/or what’s bringing you joy, or, you know, what’s giving you energy right now. And I think, that idea for me, like, how can you know, Annalisa and I, in this industry be, you know, advocates for a change in the business model that we see is something that I’ve been mulling over I mean, I’m, you know, not ready to take to the streets yet with my with any with any signs or anything, but you know, how can we be that kind of advocate, as marketers, so that’s something that I’ve been been mulling over. I don’t know if Annalisa. Abi, do you guys have anything to share about what’s bringing you energy which you’re learning?

Abi
For me? I think, as I’m closing out this semester, getting nearer to winter break, I’m, I’ve been really focused on summarizing my courses in a sense, with finals coming up, and just kind of seeing, what is it that I’ve learned and what am I taking away from the semester. And I think the semester has been interesting for many reasons. But one of them is, this is the first internship I’ve ever had. I didn’t even anticipate how much I would learn from it before I started it. And as I’m closing out the semester, and we’re closing the internships in, I’m just thinking like, what I’m going to take with me, yeah, I’ve been looking into a lot of things that I didn’t realize would be interesting until now. So I’ve been researching, like artificial intelligence, and different different thinking processes and marketing strategies and things that I maybe would have thought were boring before I looked into them.

Annalisa
That’s awesome. Yeah. So I just started a book called The Power of Habit and its subtitle is “why we do what we do in life and in business”. It took a little while in the introduction. I was kind of like, okay, let’s, let’s get to the point they were. They were using a story to get your attention. Sometimes stories lose me. I’m just like, just get to the point.

Jen Carroll
She’s like a different kind of thinker. Yeah.

Annalisa
But anyway, I did make it into the the first chapter and so far it’s it’s very interesting. And I’m excited to continue into into the book. There’s a couple of Let me see I have it up here on my phone, a couple of chapters that sound interesting “Starbucks in the habit of success: when willpower becomes automatic”. I don’t know that I agree with that.

Jen Carroll
Yeah, former Starbucks barista,

Annalisa
“The power of a crisis: how leaders create habits through accident and design”.

Jen Carroll
Well, that sounds germane.

Annalisa
So, yeah, if you anyone gets a chance to check it out. I think it’s probably a book course. worth your time.

Jen Carroll
What are you reading right now? Abi? I bet your readings something good. But something that’s not college-ey.

Abi
I’ve been reading a lot of James Baldwin. she’s one of my favorite American authors and i a lot of his work is very prevalent for today. Absolutely. Yeah.

Annalisa
Nice. What is his most known work? It’s not coming to me at the moment.

Abi
I’m probably Go Tell It On The Mountain. Okay. I think that was his first novel. I could be wrong. But I think that was one of his most famous, most successful. I just finished Giovanni’s Room, which is a different fiction novel. Really insightful. Yeah, I love all of his work that I’ve read, though.

Annalisa
I need to get into fiction. I’ve been working on that for all of mine. Yeah, I was gonna say, I’m not giving the number I’m not getting into that track.

Jen Carroll
Sadly, Abi, did you know that Annalisa is a nonfiction kind of gal–kind of Dame.

Abi
Yeah. So it doesn’t surprise me.

Jen Carroll
Well, I on the other hand, am reading some fiction, because I am a fiction lover. And I know I’m reading Half Broke Horses by Jeannette walls. And this is actually my second book by Jeannette that I’m reading and I love her style. It’s, well, it’s biographical in nature, about her family. And this is happens to be a story about her grandmother, but I just kind of love the insight that she brings to what would otherwise be untold stories about people’s lives that are, you know, I think a lot of times we get the idea that, you know, we have to accomplish the most.

Annalisa
She’s getting teary eyed everybody.

Jen Carroll
Oh my god, I feel like we have to accomplish great things or whatever be, you know, amazing, but actually, people’s everyday lives are pretty darn interesting.

Abi
yeah, I like that.

Jen Carroll
So that’s what I’m reading.

Annalisa
Same. And you can summarize it for me when you’re done. And then it can be like, Yes, I agree!

Jen Carroll
No, no, you have to do the hard work. You have to read the book.

Annalisa
I’m just an ordinary person. See what I did there?

Jen Carroll
Oh, yeah. Right. Well write your story. Or have Abi write it? She could be your she could be your biographer. Well, thanks, Abi.

Annalisa
I think this is one of our best episodes. Absolutely interesting.

Abi
Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

Annalisa
Now you have something to take home to your family and be like, yeah, this is see. This is my internship in summary. It’d be like I’m famous now.

Jen Carroll
We don’t know what the future is going to hold with with everything. Our hope is that Abi will be back with us in the spring for more learning and more sharing. If anybody who is listening, if you can’t tell you will, you should know now exactly why we hired her. So she’s really she’s pretty awesome. So thanks!